AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

topic posted Wed, December 15, 2004 - 6:52 PM by  nina
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Totally illegalizing handguns in San Francisco. Not like I'd citizenly relinquish mine, but... eeek! Yikes! Ay Caramba!

Something's gotta be done to promote more thoughtful discussion of this issue to hopefully encourage more holistic and less ignoramis proposals of action, than this shit! Oy! I wanna find a mountaintop and scream!

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi
posted by:
nina
San Francisco
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  • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

    Wed, December 15, 2004 - 6:58 PM
    damn! i just saw that on the gate nooooooo
    • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

      Wed, December 15, 2004 - 8:19 PM
      It will never happen.
      • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

        Wed, December 15, 2004 - 9:43 PM
        bullshit: it's an obvious "solution" to a complicated problem.

        SF is filled with pacifists who would rather outlaw guns, then face the alienating consequences this would have in further dividing the "haves" from the "have nots." It's also a thousand times easier than rectifying a corrupt prosecutor's office and likewise corrupt police department.

        Yeah, it's a big problem; but it's a huuuge percentage of the political left (sf's majority) that would be more than content to outlaw handguns, period. Per. widespread familliarity that they exclusively exist for people to kill people with... so why not illegalize them.

        Like I'm supposed to wave a fucking olive branch at the geurrilla trying to rape my cute self and steal my motorcycle while touring Peru...
        • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

          Thu, December 16, 2004 - 9:00 AM
          Well, the NRA has more money, and more lawyers. It will in effect, opens pandoras box for the city.

          The federal attention will not be in their favour. They are not ready to be scrutinized that closely.
          • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

            Thu, December 16, 2004 - 9:41 AM
            True- but the federal/national spotlight on San Francisco that this will recieve, will also backfire hugely on us, and on the issues we've fought to pioneer.

            Conservatives are legislating against gay marriage, and liberals are legislating against gun ownership. The divide is there regardless of the legislation, but the pronouncement of California as the land of Nuts and Fruits is now far louder and wider, with this even being considered.

            Thusly, how the hell am I supposed to defend gay marriage to my hillbilly family in Oaklahoma, if the populace that most vocally supports gay marriage is publicized to also support a whole other end of policymaking that cuts so closely to another value they hold so dear?

            A gun lobbying org needs to exist other than the NRA, one that more moderate liberal-minded urbanites can relate to- and possibly be persuaded by, to re-think these and other parallel policy issues.
            • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

              Thu, December 16, 2004 - 9:54 AM
              >A gun lobbying org needs to exist other than the NRA, one that more moderate liberal-minded urbanites can relate to- and possibly be persuaded by, to re-think these and other parallel policy issues.

              I agree 100%. The problem is that in order to get the financial backing a lobbying group needs, they need to have a huge base. That means they have to incorporates the extremes. We need the extremes to set the median, but, the extremes often do a disservice to the moderates.

              Having said that, my firearms and I will have to move out of the city if this happens.
              • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

                Thu, December 16, 2004 - 10:05 AM
                The environmental movement is supported by a huge range of groups, from extreme activists to quiet milktoasty lobbyists. Greenpeace, Sierra Club, Earth First, WWF, etc.

                If the environmental base is hippies, why the hell can't the gun community grow it's range of lobbying groups, as well? There's got to be folks out there with capital who support more sensible policymaking, outside of the Ted Nugent and Charlton Heston contingency.
                • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

                  Thu, December 16, 2004 - 10:11 AM
                  because saving the earth is a warm fuzzy kind of thing. Suburban housewives, school children, grandpas in nursing homes...everyone can feel good about saving the earth.

                  Guns are another thing. Guns are tools designed to kill. It's hard to get people to be warm and fuzzy about your right to own tools that kill.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

                    Thu, December 16, 2004 - 10:54 AM
                    Correct, it's not warm and fuzzy: but educated urbanites who consider themselves open-minded and liberal I think would respond to some level of "hey wait a minute!" outreach, if presented with it.

                    As there is no middle-of-the-road PAC, some level of homespun something to get people thinking, I think could succeed, and needs to be considered.

                    It's not reasonable to lobby to permit Safeway to sell M16s between the diary and produce aisles- but it I think is reasonable to ask the public to better balance prohibition with regulated-ownership, and to perhaps question existing vehicles of regulating said ownership. Obviously, the present means aren't working- so does it make sense to then abolish all permissions, or to rather challenge the dominant paradigm and overhaul said permissions- and parallel to that, scrutinize and troubleshout perripherial factors leading to widespread mis-use of said ownership?

                    I don't think there's gonna be a sea of academics running to peel those bumper stickers offa the rear-ends of their Volvos. Likewise, I don't see mom-groups running to outlaw minivans, because there's a phenomenon of neglected kids joy-driving their oblivious parent's idle vehicles.
              • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

                Fri, December 17, 2004 - 6:19 PM
                At close to 4 million dues paying members, the NRA is one of the largest lobbying groups extant. I cannot think of any other lobby group that has more subscribers. As gun rights groups go, id the NRA got any more moderate, they would be milquetoat. I quit the NRA because they were too wishy washy for my tastes.

                There are two things that need to happen. First, like boychaos suggests, all taxpaying gunowners need to move to a friendlier environment. Second, civic-minded liberty lovers need to bleed the city's coffers dry with lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit.

                Icing on the cake would be a sea of letters to major media outlets every time a violent crime takes place in shich the victim could have averted injury if he had been armed.

                Remember, an anti-gun attitude is also anti=logical, and therefore anti-intellectual. Gun banners are the modern day luddites.
                • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

                  Fri, December 17, 2004 - 8:37 PM
                  <<There are two things that need to happen. First, like boychaos suggests, all taxpaying gunowners need to move to a friendlier environment. >>

                  Move on up to Seattle. Loads of moderate gun nerds up here!

                  <<Icing on the cake would be a sea of letters to major media outlets every time a violent crime takes place in shich the victim could have averted injury if he had been armed.

                  Remember, an anti-gun attitude is also anti=logical, and therefore anti-intellectual. Gun banners are the modern day luddites.>>

                  Exactly!
                • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

                  Sun, December 19, 2004 - 3:56 PM
                  I love the 2nd ammendment for many reasons. Namely, the balance of equity that it's essence provides for.

                  If pro-gun folks collectively group together geographically to protect their own rights, they open doors for anti-gun folk to prohibit guns, and for them defeat the 2nd ammendment in said "anti-gun" provinces. Even if the prohibition doesn't apply to you because you moved to another province, the rule of this important ammendment has been stiffled- and that is problematic.

                  Personally, I don't endorse the NRA... in no way, because of their policymaking with regards to guns. Simply, they offer major support to individuals in politics whom for a myriad of unrelated reasons, I don't support, so thusly, I can't stand behind them. Secondly, while I appreciate their strong-arm approach to lobbying, the strong-arm approach faills miserably in education and outreach to folks on the anti-gun fence.

                  Society has changed enormously in the last quarter of a century, and I think that for many folks unexposed to positive gun ideologies, it's reasonable to take a luddite approach to want to ban a technology that seems to exist for no other reason than for bored kids to mistakenly kill one another. While all of us find immense frustration in that perspective, responding to it with strong-arm aggressive tactics only heightens the division, and lessens opportunities to widen a support base through education and outreach efforts.

                  To many, the NRA is wholly un-PC... partially for the whole redneck-impression freaking-out metropolitan urbanites, and partially because it's so alligned with one of two political parties that folks today either clearly do or don't support. Wether I or anyone in this forum thinks that's acceptable or frivolous, it is a divisive reality, and one that detracts from solving the quandry at hand.

                  Within San Francisco, I don't doubt that the NRA would blast the un-constitutionality of said law, and succeed. I suppose for me, the question isn't wether or not the law would pass, but rather that it would recieve such support- and that few challenges of public outreach would be made to persuasively generate dialogue and supportive education.

                  On the steps of capital buildings, I like the NRA. As a forum to educate and mediate concerns from both sides of the fence, to persuasively garner public support for the issue, I do think that unfortuantelly, the NRA is not adequate- and that perhaps on this issue, the two needs simply can't be met by one organization.

                  A bit of a mouthfull... but a big weight on my mind, of late. I do love however, that despite all the sucky ideological division in the US, that this seems to be one of the few forums that draws such immense support and unification, from every side of all fences.

                  K, now I wanna go blow some shit up... but I'm stuck at home, sanding. Waaah!
            • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

              Thu, December 16, 2004 - 1:06 PM
              <<A gun lobbying org needs to exist other than the NRA, one that more moderate liberal-minded urbanites can relate to- and possibly be persuaded by, to re-think these and other parallel policy issues.>>

              I joined the NRA reluctantly for that reason in 92. Discovered because I took the chance that it's a fine org.

              First woman competing at national level against men: 1906 in an NRA match.

              Offered shooting classes to the North Carolina NAACP in the 1950s, when the KKK-infiltrated cops failed to protect them.

              Charlton Heston may not be PC for today but he participated in the Civil Rights movement in the 50s or 60s.

              2 NRA board members supported the Seattle variant of Pink Pistols, supplied "Armed with Pride" stickers for our Pride table...
              • Re: AAAAGE! Holey SHit!

                Mon, December 20, 2004 - 10:18 PM
                The entire Proposition is a flawed arguement to begin with... If'n it was to pass, those of us who bothered to aquire our handguns all nice 'n legal like, and thus have them registered, would have to give them up for the pleasure of residing in San Francisco... So who does that leave behind... those 'criminals' who already have unregisted guns... If ya think about it, anyone who gets caught with an unregisterd firearm is gonna have to do their bid in the court system anyways, so what fuckin' good is a handgun law gonna do to prevent violent crime? It just creates easier targets... I know if it was legal for everyone to carry all the time alot 'o people would think twice about tryin' ta stick someone else up...

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